Grid Expectations

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Why I Will Not Be Attending Skin Fair 2008

FINAL ADDENDUM 03/03/2008 @ 2:00 p.m.

Okies, this is getting old already and since the Skin Fair has already kicked RG out I’d really prefer to just drop the subject already.

I feel the need to clear a few things, however, since some misinformed people seem to think that my blog is ruining some innocent person’s reputation. This final update to this post will prove otherwise, and then — finally — that will be that.

Before I start, there was a comment someone had made that I found pretty disturbing:

This fight isn’t yours, we don’t have the right to judge or not if someone stole or not naughty’s work… Let’s leave this to whom it may concern – the creator of the ripped skins and the people who in fact are selling it stolen.

Wow. Not our fight, huh? Tell me, what would your Second Life look like if it weren’t for these talented artists creating content that we make use of every time we’re in SL? Sorry, but no, when theft of intellectual property occurs, it’s not just the concern of the person who was stolen from, it’s something that affects all of us. I would prefer for my favorite content creators to happily remain in SL and continue beautifying my virtual surroundings, instead of taking off in disgust over ongoing theft problems. Not our concern, my ass… I’d like to see this person say that to all the fashionistas who went stir crazy over the prospect of not seeing any new Minnu skins!

Okay, enough of that. On to the screenshots that prove the alina skin base was used in the skins “candy”, “interrupted girl”, and “moon” by RG. (I’m pretty sure there were yet other skins by RG using the stolen texture as well; I saw some more for sale but there were no demos available for them and I certainly wasn’t about to spend 1000L to verify.)

These screenshots include notes pointing out where the skins are identical; you will also be able to view my inventory so that you can see for yourself that I am wearing the skin being displayed (item is in bold and will say “worn” next to it); the properties dialogue box of the inventory item is also clearly on display to leave no question as to who the creator of the skin is.

Here are the SLURLs to the shops where you can still find RG’s skin with the ripped texture, up for sale… but for those lacking common sense, may I point out the obvious once more — RG can go to these locations and delete the skins in question at any time, so just because you go there and don’t see it doesn’t mean it was never there. For those who need to actually see proof, the screenshots below are for your benefit.

Clicking on the screenshots will take you to the larger versions so that you may see in more detail.

Detail on right breast:

right breast alina right breast candy right breast interrupted girl right breast moon

Detail on the butt:

butt alina butt candy butt interrupted girl butt moon

Detail on the torso:

torso alina torso candy torso interrupted girl torso moon

Detail on the left thigh:

thigh alina thigh candy thigh interrupted girl thigh moon

Detail on the foot:

foot alina foot candy foot interrupted foot moon

Proof that these skins were available at several of RG’s satellite shops:

moon at liberty central n interrupted at liberty central n candy at sanctuary rock candy at liberty central n

Proof that they are, in fact, for sale:

interrupted sale payable to RG candy sale payable to RG

And finally, proof that RG had to have been aware for some time that his skins use a stolen Naughty texture, regardless of how he originally obtained it. Revenge edited his profile roughly a day or so ago to conceal this evidence, but thanks to the way the new Search tool works, the older version of his profile was still cached for several hours and I was able to grab a screencap of the text:

rg profile cache

Interesting how RG says that the other store owners have been to his main store and confirmed there were no stolen items there. Duh, that’s because the stolen stuff was only to be found at satellite shops that RG did not list in his profile. So there you have it. If you still hold to the belief that RG was innocent in all of this, you’re a moron.

ADDENDUM 03/01/2008 @ 8:25 p.m.

Wow, so many reactions to this post; where to start?

All right, first thing I’d like to do is correct the misconception that I’ve deleted any comments made by others at my blog. Everyone is free to agree, disagree, whatever — it’s all good, and I’m not going to censor any of it. However, I absolutely will not tolerate comment spam or any really obvious trolling, and my method for controlling this is to use comment moderation. How does this affect you? All it means is that if you’re commenting on my blog for the first time ever, your comment(s) will not be posted immediately. This enables me to view it first so that I can make sure you are abiding by my rules regarding spamming and trolling. Because I was gone for most of today, there was a small bit of a comment backlog going back almost twelve hours.

Okay, next order of business: I’d like to address Aradia’s comments regarding the removal of “Designer RD” and about Carl’s character. I’m really glad to hear that the designer in question was removed, because as I’ve stated in the original post (which you can see below here after the block of blue-formatted text), the texture theft was glaringly obvious. Like, really really really really really obvious.

I never meant to imply that Carl’s demeanor throughout my conversation was ever anything less than polite, because he was very polite the whole time. With that said, I’d like to remind everyone that I did not pull the conversation I had with him out of thin air. He really did state quite plainly that he was not going to kick Designer RG out of the fair, and yes he really did make that comment about most skin designers using Renderosity and then posed the “who is REALLY ripping someone off” question right after making that assertion.

It is interesting to note that Aradia wrote, “It is wrong to sit there and accuse him of wrong doing, he is not a mind reader, nor does he keep tabs on every single skin designer on the grid.” Yes, quite right — that would be a monumental task, and my thanks goes out to Aradia for making my point for me! This is the reason why I contacted him in the first place. Of course I don’t expect him to be aware of every skin designer out there, and it’d be ludicrous for anyone to assume that he’d be able to identify every case of texture theft that might pass before him… call me crazy but I was actually trying to be helpful when I IM’d this information in the first place.

I’d like to remind everyone once again that my choice to not attend the the Skin Fair was in no way reflective upon the other skin designers involved, and while I understand the ideas expressed by several of the comments left by various skin designers in this post, I will not make any apologies for my original intent to boycott. Folks, this is how boycotts work — they are not meant to be half-assed, weakly performed protestations; they are strong and vocal and designed with the intent of getting one’s point across in a very noticeable manner. This is my voice, and this is how I choose to wield it.

Countering this are some compelling arguments made by Annyka Bekkers of Blowpop who wrote, “… I am extremely uncomfortable with third parties acting on the designer’s behalf, no matter how well-meaning. There’s too much potential for mistaken accusations and ruined reputations, which we’ve seen too many times in the past… “

I agree with what Annyka says, which in my mind should serve all the more to underscore just how obvious the texture theft in this case really is. I would not go on record saying Designer RG is using a texture that actually really belongs to the Naughty designers unless I were 1,000% sure of it… and really, that is how sure I am. I invite you all to go see the proof for yourselves (and I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before the designer goes and deletes the evidence unless they are deliberately waiting for a DMCA takedown and hoping to profit in the timebeing):

Pick up the demos for the candy skin, the interrupted girl skin, and the moon skin, and then compare it with an Alina demo from Naughty.

Those SLURLs are also for the benefit of those people who’d gone to the main store and found nothing. Designer RG has only his/her main location listed in Picks and Classified, but there are other satellite locations that you won’t see in his/her profile. This place at Piccadilly Circus is one of them.

In closing of this addendum, I’d like to make it clear that in light of Aradia’s announcement that the designer in question has since been removed, I’m no longer advocating a boycott of the Skin Fair.

And now, on to the post as it had originally appeared…


Okay, before I say anything else? I struggled with whether I was going to post this at all because I am pretty sure it’s going to invite the kind of attention I’d rather not have. I mean, after I got a taste of how some bloggers reacted to even the faintest notion that their traffic might get diverted away from their sites, I can tell you straight off that I MUCH prefer to sticking to writing about pretty clothes that make me happy.

I feel, however, that this is a subject that just cannot be swept under the rug. So here goes…

If you keep up with the Second Life fashion blogging scene at all, you’ve probably noticed several mentions lately about the upcoming “International Skin Fair”.

I got a press release which I believe was distributed to a number of bloggers. Here’s an excerpt from it:

“… More than 65 Second Life skin designers are waiting to present their existing and new products to those visiting the fair.

The huge skin variety guarantees something for everyone. Meet the known designers exhibiting next to talented newcomer and small companies… “

Naturally, my curiosity was piqued and I was anxious to know what to expect at this event. One of my brilliant friends suggested that I look at the Vanity Universe group (the group that was founded to organize the participants in the Skin Fair) to see what skin designer names appeared. Very clever!

Fast forward to the part where I learn that one of the skin designers being featured at the Skin Fair is currently selling a skin with a body that is identical to the Alina skin from Naughty Designs. (For the sake of making this easier to write, I will refer to this designer as Designer RG.) I was somewhat dismayed by this; the subject of skin theft has been a particularly sore one lately as many fashion bloggers will attest.

I decided to contact Carl Crabe, since he is listed as the founder of the group. I explained to Carl that I was a bit concerned about Designer RG being featured at the Skin Fair. I even made sure to make Carl aware that as I was speaking to him, I was alternating between the demo for Designer RG’s skin and the Alina skin, and was seeing with my very own eyes that the textures were identical from the nipples down.

Carl’s response was not what I was expecting; in fact, when you think about it it’s actually quite insulting to SL skin designers in general. For starters, he said he was already aware of the matter, and then he went on about how the majority of skin designers in SL get their basic skins from Renderosity and simply make a few alterations. After making that statement, he posed the rhetorical question of just who, then, is really doing the ripping off?

(Note: To suggest that Lost Thereian of Naughty Designs takes items from Renderosity to make his own skins seems not just a little bit ridiculous, and judging from comments he has made in the jira issue regarding texture theft, I think it’s safe to say that he probably uses sources such as 3dsk.)

It was at that point that I told Carl that with Designer RG’s skin demo, it was actually quite easy to see just who was getting ripped off. Seriously, everything on Designer RG’s demo and the Alina skin matched perfectly and their parts were lining up flawlessly. “The likelihood of two separate people applying all of these textures to the avatar UV mesh identically“, I told him, “is highly implausible.”

Further conversation with Carl proved to be a bit unsettling. After I’d just pointed out to him that the odds were against two completely different people skinning the UV mesh in such perfect unison, I can only interpret his answer as an attempt to dilute that by saying that Designer RG sells lots of other skins that Naughty doesn’t sell. What other skins that Designer RG might offer is besides the point!

Carl did say that he had tried to reach the Naughty designers to get their take on the matter, but they had failed to respond. (I do not know what methods Carl used to try to contact them, nor am I aware of the frequency/urgency with which he conducted these attempts.) Nevertheless, Carl stated unequivocally that he will not kick Designer RG from the Skin Fair. When I asked him, “Why not?”, his vague response was that if someone from Naughty could meet up with him, they could “talk” about it.

I then informed Carl that I planned on blogging about this. Especially in light of the rash of recent skin thefts that have been happening lately, with Minnu Palen even going so far as to announce that there will be no more new releases until Linden Lab acts more decisively on this, this raises serious questions about the integrity of the Skin Fair and it’s organizers.

Carl went silent after that. I continued on, telling him that I would send him snapshots of the demo skin and the Alina skin side by side so he could see just how perfectly identical they really are. In my last message to him, I said I was about to send him a couple of images… and I got the “User not online” message in return. I sent him the textures anyways so that he can take a look at them later.

Just to cover all bases, I consulted with someone who is familiar with 3D design and modeling, and they agreed to let me quote them but only under the condition of anonymity. What they had to say confirmed what I’d told Carl. “The odds of two 3d artists applying the same photosource to a UV map in the same way are virtually nil,” they said. “Mapping something as complex as a human skin onto the UV maps and having it look identical? Not gonna happen. Anyone with common sense should see right away if they look at the UV maps and consider what’s involved in the process.”

Anyhow, going back to Designer RG’s skin. It’s pretty obvious that one of two things happened for this to come about: either Designer RG ripped the Alina skin to use as a base, or Designer RG bought ripped full perm .tga files from a Business In A Box reseller. If it is the latter which applies, the fact that Designer RG persists in selling the skin while being aware of the questionable origins of the textures points to either poor judgement or a lack of ethics. (Yes, this designer is very much aware, as is evidenced by the commentary on their profile.)

So there you have it, my reason for boycotting the Skin Fair. My decision to not attend is in no way indicative of my opinion of the legitimate skin designers who are to be featured. It’s just that I find it apalling that the Skin Fair organizers would not only deliberately turn a blind eye to damning evidence, but would actually continue to promote someone who is using a ripped skin texture in their product.

NSFW shots of the skins are located after the cut.

Clicking on the images will take you to their respective flickr pages where you should be able to view larger versions.

In this first image, Designer RG’s skin demo is on the left and the Naughty Alina skin is on the right. Note how the navel, abdominal shading, pubic hair, and labia line up perfectly. The likeness is so striking that it looks as if the photographer had simply played with some simple hue adjustment settings in Photoshop to achieve this effect.

I Am Boycotting The Skin Fair II

In this second image, the Naughty Alina skin is on the left and Designer RG’s skin demo is on the right. See how the mole over the right thigh appears in the exact same spot where the mole appears in the image above?

I Am Boycotting The Skin Fair I

March 1, 2008 - Posted by | Ethics, Fashion, Intellectual Property, Skin | , , , , ,


  1. Well CRAP! Being the skin and clothing crackwhore that I am…I have really been looking forward to the skin fair..but now I’ll be joining you with your boycot. Mel, can we go shopping instead?:)

    Comment by Wilma Delgado | March 1, 2008

  2. You were right to post this, this kind of thing needs to be said. Anytime it happens, whether it involve big time names and organizations, or just another random Joe/Jane Doe.

    I think I will be joining you in the boycott. Any idiot would be able to see that it’s exactly the same skin, even without going to the big pictures. Should be interesting to see Carl’s response to this, if there even will be one. It’s pretty damning if he just ignores this.

    Oddly enough though the ripped demo looks better than the original skin. They obviously know how to make skin if they could improve the shadows and tone that well. Which makes it even worse, they know how to make skin but instead they steal it.

    Comment by Adelia Menges | March 1, 2008

  3. Adelia, I agree with you that the whole situation is awful, but the sad fact is, tools as powerful as Photoshop can do a lot of the perceived improvements in just a few clicks. Color corrections, etc are terribly easy in Photoshop.

    So, at least in my opinion, the skins are ripped because the ripper is interested in nothing more than making money fast and effortlessly, and can’t do it on his own merits and talents.

    Comment by Shannon Carroll | March 1, 2008

  4. This is an issue which is going to get muddier and muddier as time goes by. I chased up some of the business in a box textures which were being sold in a box of 10,000 textures. Some of them were free textures which ought never to be sold, some of them were other people’s textures which ought not to be sold on as textures by anyone else.

    Among the latter group, however, there were textures which had been taken from the web, which were then minimally edited before being uploaded. This is sometimes the reason why similar textures are being sold as “their” IP by more than one texture house in SL.

    I have no time for people who are ripping off other people’s work, but must claim ignorance about whether the renderosity and other source material that some skin makers use as bases for their work are actually full skins or just base material which needs considerable work to make them work in SL? I presume that’s what the fair organiser is saying: that he can’t be sure that the “original” skin you are referring to is the IP of Naughty Designs or actually the IP of Rederosity or another source, and legitimately used by both Naughty and the mysterious Designer RG.

    I can understand that you feel angry on the part of Naughty designs, but really the fair organiser is in a very difficult position unless someone from Naughty comes forward to confirm whether the skin is his IP or not.

    Comment by Caliandris | March 1, 2008

  5. […] just read the latest entry on Grid Expectations, and I fully agree with Melanie on her decision to boycott the Skin Fair 2008. The response from […]

    Pingback by GOGOLITA.COM | Miss Money Bag! | March 1, 2008

  6. Thanks for posting this. I am an avid shopper with 36,000+ items in my inventory. A vast majority of these items are skins. I was so looking forward to the skin fair to see if I could totally burst my inventory. Too bad as I will not be attending.

    I am not a content creator nor a fashion blogger, but as an artist in RL, I have the utmost respect for all of you who do go to so much time and trouble to create such beautiful items and for all of you who so diligently keep me informed of these items.

    Rock on! 😉

    Comment by Joonie | March 1, 2008

  7. That skin designer is NO longer in the fair, just so you know. Another thing, Carl’s first language isn’t English, and perhaps he didn’t know how to express him self correctly, trust me when I say that he has put a lot of work into that fair and has done his best to weed out the bad seeds. It is wrong to sit there and accuse him of wrong doing, he is not a mind reader, nor does he keep tabs on every single skin designer on the grid.

    I’d also like to point out that Carl is a GENTLEMAN, and he would not purposely ignore someone. If you got “user not online” and no response before that, then that means he crashed, he does crash quite often.

    Perhaps you should ask those who do know him the type of man that he is. I assure you none of the people that know Carl will agree with him being rude, blatant and ignorant.

    Comment by Aradia | March 1, 2008

  8. Way to go girl….glad you found this out!!

    Comment by Kallisto Destiny | March 1, 2008

  9. @ Aradia: anyone who isn’t up to the task of vetting the designers involved to make sure there aren’t any issues like this has NO BUSINESS organising an event of this nature in the first place (I note that at LEAST three of the ‘designers’ still IN the skin fair are selling (in most cases, minimally) modified versions of Eloh Eliot’s freely released skin PSDs…which is, to be honest, rather ludicrous).

    Comment by Vivi | March 1, 2008

  10. I have to second what Aradia says. Carl has been nothing but a gentleman to me, and he has been very helpful. I am sorry to hear that some of you will be boycotting the fair, but keep in mind that the only people affected will be the designers. 68 designers, one bad seed.

    Comment by antonia m | March 1, 2008

  11. The skins in question were not for sale at the fair as we discovered. The designer in question was selling other skins at the skin fair stall. I can understand Carl wanted to be careful and businesslike about it. But when I read THIS:

    “he said he was already aware of the matter, and then he went on about how the majority of skin designers in SL get their basic skins from Renderosity and simply make a few alterations. After making that statement, he posed the rhetorical question of just who, then, is really doing the ripping off?”

    I was appalled. And I’m sure I am not the only one. I can hardly believe Carl of all people said that, but I also do not believe Melanie makes up stuff.

    I don’t think there’s any language confusion here. Though I would love it to be a result of “didn’t know how to express himself correctly”. Because that certainly is not a correct nor gentleman like way of dealing with the situation, no matter what your native language is.
    Is this what he thinks of sl skin makers? I really, really hope not. I hope he was just having a bad day.

    Comment by Tuli | March 1, 2008

  12. Putting myself in the position of someone like Carl Crabe who is unselfishly donating his time and resources for the first skin fair that many have been waiting for, I would not want to play judge and jury in deciphering skin designs. That is best handled by the market place to make their own decisions of which is easier by your information here which is very useful. It should also be handled with said designers personally through the channels of IP theft.

    Carl Crabe has no place as the protagonist here.

    Comment by Tina Travanti | March 1, 2008

  13. Renderocity does sell skins but they are designed for platforms like Daz etcetera and not configured to match the SL Model. In addition, all of the items list licensing rights, so many are allowed to be used to make a commercial package, but not to be resold unchanged in a package.

    I will be boycotting the skin fair, and as to Aradia’s comment, we can chalk that up to a defensive stance. I believe in Melanie’s integrity.

    Comment by Gabrielle | March 1, 2008

  14. He obviously spoke enough english to express his disinterest in removing Designer RG from the fair. Good to hear that they have been removed now…but the urgency to do so should have been there at the time that this issue was presented to him.

    *Raises hand* I won’t be attending either.

    Comment by Char | March 1, 2008

  15. Carl removed the offending designer from the fair already.

    In any case, it was Naughty’s place to bring these complaints to Carl, not yours and he should not be expected to act on a third-party’s claims without speaking to the original designer. I am glad there are people out there looking out for me, but I am extremely uncomfortable with third parties acting on the designer’s behalf, no matter how well-meaning. There’s too much potential for mistaken accusations and ruined reputations, which we’ve seen too many times in the past.

    What if, for example, you were unaware that Tete a Pied had changed their name to Fluer and took it upon yourself complain to Carl that Fluer was selling all ripped-off TaP skins. And then what if Carl, acting on your word alone, ejected them from the show?

    And also, while you may be angry at Carl, alot of exhibitors are counting on the exposure from the skinfair, and have put alot of effort into getting new stuff ready for it. My new skinline will be released ONLY at skinfair. So you boycott skinfair, and youre also boycotting me and all of the other skin designers who are there.

    Comment by Annyka | March 1, 2008

  16. * I meant to write “I am glad there are people out there looking out for designers”. I dont envision an army of folks out there lookijng out for ME, in particular.

    Comment by Annyka | March 1, 2008

  17. Meh, boycotting Skin Fair means boycotting some of my favorite skin designers. It would be like giving them all a slap in the face. Thanks for letting us known the RG guy is out, Aradia.

    Comment by Sansarya Caligari | March 1, 2008

  18. Carl probably removed it for no other reason than this blog would be published with negative comments regarding the skin fair.

    Sad really.

    Comment by Leilani | March 1, 2008

  19. My partner Azriel Demain of Falln is one of the merchants participating in the skin fair, and he has been looking forward to it.
    I showed him this article before he logged in, and when he signed on, he told me that one of the merchants has been pulled from the fair – R****G*…I can’t help but think that might be the merchant you speak of in this post.
    I am very much an advocate for doing your own work, and not stealing – and not supporting those who steal. But your lindens speak louder than anything else, even abuse reports unfortunately, it would seem. The 60+ designers there that spend hours with their art programs and sl arguing skins into submission, fussing to make sure the shading, seams, brows, lips, everything – are just right – it isn’t fair to them to boycott all of them on the basis of one loser who may very well have been booted from the fair. Just food for thought.
    I will be at the Skin Fair at my partner’s side, supporting him and all of the other talented artists who do their own work.

    — Tomoyuki Batra

    Comment by Tomoyuki Batra | March 1, 2008

  20. I really respect your opinion and your concerns, Melanie but I sincerely think you may be jumping the gun a wee bit. I have already decided not to attend the first day of Skin Fair simply because I have a business I opened today AND I know the Skin Fair will be a lagmeister. I hope I am not missing out of Skin Fair goodies and there are many models of my acquaintance participating in the event and I entirely support them.

    I don’t believe that ANYONE involved with SKIN FAIR would knowingly condone ripped skins. Moreover pictures are not proof, however close they may appear, and as someone pointed out, an administrator needs to hear it from the horse’s mouth, not from a concerned bystander.

    Comment by Sidonie Larkham | March 1, 2008

  21. Ok, well….I’m still not going. But maybe all my alts will. 😉

    Comment by Joonie | March 1, 2008

  22. Any concerned consumer in entitled to voice his/her thoughts on any issue they feel is appropriate for a business or other consumers to be aware of. Consumers speaking out and standing up against content theft – and not just creators – is the entire point of the I.P. Rights campaign. So, to remark that she’s not the designer directly affected and should, therefore, keep quiet is moot.

    Comment by Catero Revolution | March 1, 2008

  23. It is, I think, thanks to Melanie, that if it is true that the said thief in question is pulled out of the skin fair (I have not personally confirmed with Carl nor was able to go today, so I do not know personally), then she receives entire credit :).

    Melanie, thank you for the bold and brave move! As one of the first to see this post, I admire your gut and determination to stand for what’s right!

    Comment by Tarasia Ashbourne | March 1, 2008

  24. […] Why I Will Not Be Attending Skin Fair 2008 Okay, before I say anything else? I struggled with whether I was going to post this at all because I am pretty sure […] […]

    Pingback by Top Posts « | March 2, 2008

  25. hey folks! Im in RG store and i didnt find any body like that in pic.

    Comment by Betty Boops | March 2, 2008

  26. Betty, im here too nothing equal – maybe the blog owner is wrong about RG –
    people get nut in these days!!!

    Comment by Charllotte Paine | March 2, 2008

  27. they erased your comment hun

    Comment by Charllotte Paine | March 2, 2008

  28. i do sort of feel something odd for the designers dumb enough to go display their products there. I expect every single skin was systematically intercepted and will soon be for sale elsewhere by someone’s myriad of alts.

    skins off render? don’t make me laugh. the modeling used for skins on render does not match the borked sl mesh model at all and so much work would be required to morph a render skin onto the sl mesh that it is a waste of time. there are components on render that can be applied. makeup, etc. but for realistic skins there is a different site real artists subscribe to for nude model reference sets. Clearly someone is not much of a 3D artist to be suggesting SL skins come off of render.

    what a laugh.

    if you displayed your skins at the international ripper fest then you should have known better.


    look for your work in the so-called allegedly “Brazilian” sims soon. (i doubt the rippers are all Brazilians as they don’t seem to do a good job of faking poor Portuguese English trans babble. whoever the rippers are… the planet would be improved if they were run over by a mac truck)

    Comment by anoncuzidon'tlikerippergrifing | March 2, 2008

  29. The theft of another’s work is deceitful and low. Regardless of how the information reached Carl is not the issue, it was the content of the information. It wasnt the medium, it was the message.

    I applaud those who stand up and take action when this type of theft takes place.

    Thank you for speaking for all of the content creators in SL!


    Comment by SunShine Kukulcan | March 2, 2008

  30. The point of the IP Rights campaign is respecting the creators’ rights to determine how their work gets distributed. That means letting the creator decide which battles to fight and how to fight them. Nowhere in this account do I see any mention of contacting Lost to see how he wanted to handle this.

    Comment by Annyka | March 2, 2008

  31. hola! i dont see nothing in rg mainstore like this pic, i tested all demos. the owner blog is wrong. i think

    Comment by Samirah Betsen | March 2, 2008

  32. Hello. I’m really glad for have people in second life suporting my store and looking for all thieves that stolen my work. Unfortunately, many of Naughty’s skins are on SL exchange as well as onrez. It would be nice if I could say they were limited to these 2 places but the fact is our skins are all over SL .They are in almost every full perms shop, they are available in “free stuff” shops , they are being sold in hundreds of Sl shops, they are available as free downloads on the net via links that are posted in diff forums.There is no possible way Lost or I can sue this many people(and they know it),especially since most of them are not even US residents.Dmcas are ineffective at this point.Believe me many have been filed.
    But, i think the writer of blog committed a little mistake with “RG” store, cause i visited her store and i didnt find nothing ripped from me and Lost Thereian.
    Ty for all suport guys! Anything visit my blog for more updates.

    Comment by Ambyance2 Anubis | March 2, 2008

  33. Aw, Ambyance, I’m sorry to hear that. :\

    Comment by Tenshi Vielle | March 2, 2008

  34. Wow…that totally sucks…so sorry this has happened to you Ambyance2…and that nothing can be done. On a side note, don’t blame Carl…

    Comment by Scarlett Niven | March 2, 2008

  35. @ Vivi #9 – Since you didn’t actually sign your full name, I’ll reply here 🙂

    First of all you are no one to say who can organize what simply because you feel they aren’t suitable for the job, as you probably don’t even know Carl on a personal level.

    Second of all, Eloh has no problem with people selling her skins; she’s stated that more than once. So people need to get over that fact. I my self don’t agree with the fact that people should be selling skins that are available for free, but if the designer does “NOT” mind, who the hell am I to bash those modifying the skin and selling it, if the designer her self put them out for that reason? I am no one. I only have power over my own content, and thankfully it’s not skin making, as this is way too much drama to deal with.

    So if you have a problem with people selling Eloh skins, go take it up with Eloh her self and bash her for making her content open source.

    As per the comments left about 3d sites being used as bases for skins on the grid, you’re right the mesh isn’t the same but bits and pieces from those skins can be used to make up a skin. It’s not all that hard if you know what you’re doing in PS.

    Comment by Aradia | March 2, 2008

  36. @ Aradia, again: if there was an awareness of an issue regarding copyright with one of the skin fair designers, that’s the job of the organisers to handle; apparently Carl was unwilling to do so, which means his fitness for the job is questionable at best. Given that content theft and copyright infringement have become rather prominent issues in the SL content creation community of late, to have something like a ‘skin fair’ and to include the content of designers whose work has been questioned seems rather tone-deaf, at best.

    And I have no issue at all with anyone reselling Eloh Eliot’s skins; what I have an issue with is people who resell those skins with minor modifications being included in the skin fair because of their connections to the fiar’s organisers (but then it’s already pretty clear that the ethics of said organisers are questionable at best).

    And you’re obviously rather ignorant of what’s actually involved in making a skin; even if you ARE good with Photoshop, it takes a total of eighty to one hundred hours of work, or more, to apply source photographs to the UV mesh, to blend, to colour-match, to apply hand shading, to match seams…it is not ‘easy’, even for someone who knows what they’re doing.

    Comment by Vivi | March 2, 2008

  37. @Vivi: Then you should take it up with those people releasing Eloh skins. I really doubt people like Roberta who has modified Eloh’s skin and has a booth at the skin fair has any “special” connection to Carl.

    I also never said I was a wiz at skin making, but it’s also not hard to take eyes, nose, mouth and other details for a skin from other pictures/sources. After all we do have photo sourced skins on the grid.

    Anyway I am done replying on this blog, if you decide to stop hiding behind your “vivi” name and want to discuss anything else with me, I’m online.

    Aradia Dielli is my name if you didn’t already know it 🙂

    Thank you Mel for the update on the post, I’ve also gone ahead and sent you a LM to the store where the skins are located and I have taken pictures and agree that the “Alina” skin was used as a base.

    Perhaps the designer bought the files off the net or a forum like Amby stated, maybe she wasn’t aware of the fact that they are ripped copies of Naughty skins, but the end result is the same, these are ripped.

    Comment by Aradia | March 2, 2008

  38. Aradia, we can see in bucuresti, but is not RG selling the skin that was ripped and SS that is selling. Ambyance2 told that RG is ok.

    Comment by Charlotte Paine | March 2, 2008

  39. Charlotte, Amby did not see the skin Mel made the post about. The owner of RG had pulled this skin down, that is why she couldn’t compare the right skin. This is the skin Mel was speaking of. 🙂

    Comment by Aradia | March 3, 2008

  40. Guys, RG is innocent everybody knows it. Ambyance told it too. So lets RG’s store in peace lets take care about our lifes and second lifes. This post went down when Ambyance told that RG is ok above it. Maybe they talked about what happened. Maybe RG bought a skin from slexchange and didnt know about it. RG and all people dont have check all stuff in slexchange when buy something and im walking for slexchange and i saw alina skin was selling by “Mrs Waco”
    So we can see that RG is innocent and Mrs Waco is the thief. We can see she asking about his skin.
    “I think your skins are from naughty designs”

    Comment by Perfumada Zabelin | March 3, 2008

  41. Aradia, you told that in bucuresti we can find RG selling ripped skins, you lied. Rg is not selling ripped skins, but SS is selling, SS and RG is not the same person, 2 different stores babe.;.;.. So you committed a mistake. I saw all the skins in bucuresti, only SS is selling ripped stuff.. we can’t mix these 2 stores , are completly differen… S***Y S****L is selling ripped stuff ..

    Comment by Charlotte Paine | March 3, 2008

  42. I think RG is cool too, i know her store and all stuff is pretty good and original. Perhaps the skins she bought a template in slexchange. She couldn’t know that it was ripped. But if Aradia told that she pulled off, we can see how much honest she is…. She discovered that skin was ripped and took off . 10 stars for RG.

    Comment by Max Shenzhou | March 3, 2008

  43. I think you guys need to take care of your own life…no offense, but since naughty’s owner isn’t doing anything againt these so called ´´thieves´´, why you’re caring that much about this skins? What you guys will achieve defending something that is not eve yours? I think it’s pointless, and i also think that if these designers are stealing, each one had it’s own conscience about their acts…This fight isn’t yours, we don’t have the right to judge or not if someone stole or not naughty’s work…we don’t have cameras on this person computer to see what’s she doing, so it’s the blog’s world against the supposed thieves world.

    Comment by Shadow Pidgeon | March 3, 2008

  44. *It’s the blog’s WORD against the thieves WORD. SOrry

    And one more comment…You guys are looking like you want to see someone ruined…do you have pleasure on that? What if these people are innocent? The blog will get a bad image, so I don’t think it’s rational accusing this or that person wihout the concent and the word of the REAL creator of these skins. Like I previously mentioned, since the REAL Naughty owner didn’t do nothing against those people on RG store, I don’t think it’s right to keep looking for evidences to incriminate her. Let’s leave this to whom it may concern – the creator of the ripped skins and the people who in fact are selling it stolen.

    Comment by Shadow Pidgeon | March 3, 2008

  45. im in piccadily circus … theres a zombie grey with bruises skin here ahahha Does Naughty sell zombies? weird…

    Comment by Charllotte Paine | March 3, 2008

  46. Friends: As of 9:54 EST (GMT-5), when I checked back at the store of ‘Designer RG’, the Candy Skin, Interrupted Girl Skin, and Moon Skin, as well as another skin that I cannot remember the name of– the one on the top middle section, which was not available for Demo and was the only selling for 80L at the time, whilst the rest was for 100L– the skins were indeed taken off the shelves, as Melanie had expected would happen.

    Only the “Zombie Grey skin with Red Lip” is up right above an outfit (on the top right), selling for 666L (odd, as I felt it had sold for 100L previously like the rest of the skins), and that also has a demo.

    Melanie, thank you for the thorough comments response!

    Sigh….I dont want to drag the issue. I dont want to appear as if I am trying to impress every one of you….Trying to draw attention to myself when, really, its not necessary and I know that most of you have moved on. More over, I especially *especially* do not wish to contradict Ambyance2 when she says that the RG Skin was ok and it did not look like a lift off the beautiful Alina skin. Who am I to contradict the designer, the expert on her skins?? :(:(

    Yes, I did my own investigation of the above controversy and spent most of yesterday on it; and indeed find that the Interrupted Girl skin is derived off the Alina. But I didn’t want to post anything here about it, and even favored the idea of urging Amybance2 if I had the opportunity to talk with her, until I got to talk to Lost or Ambyance2. I was, and still am, scared of appearing to one-up a designer.

    Now, before I go on, let me explain my motive for trying to contact them: my intent is not to harass them, as unfortunately I know they are amongst the heaviest victims of the crime of theft, and I know that what information I will provide them will not surprise them. However, I could not stand the idea of anyone not knowing the truth of something, and it just bothered me that they did not know. I care very, very much about their work and for them to be under that impression I considered, well, not good at all.

    Ambyance2, please, please, please forgive me for posting this, instead of waiting for you to respond to me– it is not meant to as a debunk or challenge to you…but when I saw about 20 comments addressed to Mele, amongst which were comments which stated that the Alina looks nothing like the Interrupted Girl, I morally felt that I could not stay silent any longer. I knew morally that if I did not make my own comment I would leave Mele bereft of support of her position that the ‘Designer RG’ skin is rip off the Alina– something which I felt I could provide– and I felt that, given the circumstances, that was not right. Further, I knew that after today the issue would die.

    Mele and I are NOT friends per se– just acquaintances thanks to her blog post about this, and others that attracted my attention– so I dont have the bias of a friend, but only the moral conviction that she couldn’t be left alone.

    Unfortunately, because most of the skins were pulled today at the Piccadilly location, those new to this blog post and to the 40 + comments underneath it will not have the benefit of trying the Interrupted Girl skin (and others, if Mele is right about the others in her “Addendum”) and seeing for themselves the aligning spots I will point out. I am very well aware that, as of today, my word is against ‘Designer RG’s’ and everyone else who is more authoritative than myself. Hopefully those of you who managed to grab the Demo’s before today will come back to them and test these for yourself.

    I admit up front I am *not* a skin maker, further *not* a designer of any kind. I am merely a writer and — as I hope to consider myself– an ally of honest designers. However, when I was testing the skins, I invited a real-life professional, well-experienced graphics designer and SL skin dabbler to compare the skins live with me.

    I chose to use the “[ND] DEMO Eye Shadow Natural Beauty” of the “[ND] DEMO Alina Singles Fair – “Eye Shadow Natural Beauty” ” demo pack from the Naughty Designs store to study against the Interrupted Girl skin. Together, we agreed that the Alina was used as the basis of the skin…the RG skin was derived off from it. We have found that:

    -Shadings directly beneath the breasts on where it creases deepest are exactly the same..exact size and shape…all that is different is the quality of the work

    – The ears line up …. My friend has told me that the RD skin is made by a noob skin-maker (or probably Noob at the graphics program in general) and that it is “a product of a layer style…an unskilled use of it….[a] classic case of too much overlay and multiply”, so the shading is off, but at closer look the base design is the same

    – The seam at the facemask of the RG Skin line up exactly with the facemask of your Alina …. it is harder to tell with the face makeup, but the eyebrows are also at the same place

    – A tummy seam, most visible at the left side of the tummy, is at the exact place in both the Alina and RG skins

    – The shading at the knees: Switching between both skins does not change placement of knee shading. Further, on the left knee, the shading of wrinkle branches flowing to the left side flows EXACTLY the same … and the right knee also seems very similar

    – The mole of the RD skin. does indeed line up with the emole of your Alina skin exactly.

    – The pink slit of, er, the female private part, does not move AND is even the same shading. The hair down surrounding it I think is also drawn the same….only exception on the RD is that the lines is finer and the color is different.

    – On my own, to add to the evidence, I also examined the butt area: the major butt creases are also the same.

    Overall tone of the skin was changed but I argue based on the above that the Alina was used as the basis of it …. I have available 12 sets of shots using my shape (of which I ask you to forgive as I like imperfect, short shapes…), where you will find that a shot of your Naughty skin will have an identical version from the RG skin. In advance I also apologize for one photo which was accidentally made smaller (My eyes were beginning to blur) and also foir the different lighting in some, as I forgot to ensure that one light setting was used for all only:(. Hopefully you will still be able to see what I mean….

    You may view the pictures here in about 5 minutes after this post goes up(for there are 24 shots to upload, and i may as well add a two more to show my inventory highlighted with each skin worn: ….

    Thank you for your time and patience. If you have any questions at all please let me know. Unfortunately as I have email problems atm, I can’t turn on the option to send IMs to my email:(….So until that’s fixed– heh, please drop notecards if I’m offline!



    Comment by Tarasia Ashbourne | March 3, 2008

  47. Because I’m the type that likes to go and see for myself on things, I made an effort to find any skins of “RG’s” that seemed to be similar to Naughty’s. I tried Piccadilly and Bucuresti, and found nothing remotely similar to Naughty’s “Alina” by “RG.”

    But I also am glad to see that you decided not to boycott or advocate boycotting skin fair. After giving it a LOT of thought myself, boycotting the whole fair which is chock full of other skin designers, as well, didn’t seem so fair – no pun intended. If I spot a thief you can bet your butt I won’t be supporting that person him/herself – but I couldn’t bring myself to not at least stop by and check out some of the amazing goodies there. (Gala Phoenix’s “Refined” being one example, and all the many other FABOO skins there. ;))

    Comment by Shannon Carroll | March 3, 2008

  48. there arent interrupt, candy and bla bla skins.. ive checked all revenge store, i tested all demos… but i saw one girl that share one store with RG that sells stolen texture.. but its not RD, is other person… SS is the name

    Comment by Charllotte Paine | March 3, 2008

  49. To all the people who keep saying that RG does not even have these skins up in the store — are you illiterate? Like, seriously, are you?

    As I stated in the post above, ” …I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before the designer goes and deletes the evidence unless they are deliberately waiting for a DMCA takedown and hoping to profit in the timebeing)…”

    Duh, RG obviously took the skins down as soon as s/he realized the SLURL spotlight was on the stolen skins.

    If/when I’m feeling more motivated, I’ll take screencaps showing the name of the items in my inventory, the properties of the demos showing RG as the creator of the skins, and the properties also give the dates when the items were obtained and added to my inventory so you can see for yourselves that these skins were in fact there being sold less than 24 hrs ago.

    Comment by melaniekiddofsl | March 3, 2008

  50. Tarasia Ashbourne,

    I think you want publicity for your blog. Don’t try it here hun. It’s a poor way for merchandise.. Melanie’s blog told about it, dont copy her idea… I saw your blog and you started now with blog, writing about something that Melanie wrote first… Dont up your blog with Melanie’s idea… It’s pathetic and ridiculous..

    Comment by Charllotte Paine | March 3, 2008

  51. A lot of people are sending me IMs in Second Life.
    I would like to tell that I don’t stay online in second life all day like you, guys, so stop send me IMs. I was very clear in my profile – no IMs, no notecards and no friendship.
    For me second life is work and for know me, know my work first. Me and Lost are very busy in real life, so what a pity! I can’t answer you and your notecards.
    I’m here, for the last time, cause I don’t have time for loose in blogs and internet bull shit.
    Stop talking what can I do or not with the “designer that pulled out skins”. I will not make a DMCA against this person. So stop send me IMs “you should write a DMCA”. I do what I think is right and I follow my heart in first point.
    I think that “ripped textures” is not a good issue for talking in blogs cause I’m very tired to answer every time that happened it and I really don’t have time for it in my life.
    Second life is a way to live free and do what we can’t do in real life and I’m very glad for have you protecting my business when I’m in real life enjoying. I don’t want be rude, but I’m pissed off with this kind of blog and I always should send a comment for make people stop IM me about it!

    My profile:

    -No longer taking responsibility for missing purchases. Please contact Linden Labs for support when this happens.
    -Do not send me notecards please.
    -Do not IM me.

    Got it?
    Ty for all suport guys! Visit my blog for more updates.

    Comment by Ambyance2 Anubis | March 3, 2008

  52. Ambyance2: On my part, we will certainly respect your space and cease to publish about it :). I did very much hesitate to send you and Lost that notecard as I knew that you *were* extremely busy and, moreover, that when someone sets a policy like that it is meant to be taken seriously. Your business is wonderful and I will certainly be eagerly watching for new releases!

    Hi, Charlotte, hope everything is well^^. I have nothing but respect for you, and I am sure that when you wrote that you meant well. However, your latest comment implied that a few things that I specifically made sure that everyone knew I was not:
    1– That I was looking for publicity. Please let me reassure you I am not…I made sure to let everyone know right away, please see the 4th paragraph of my last comment (or third taking out a one-liner I wrote). In fact really didn’t like posting pictures of myself naked (please read my blog disclaimer to see this)
    2– That I am a merchant/content creator. Due to the serious skill and time needed to put into skins/hair/clothing/jewelry/what have we, I have from the very beginning of my blog project tried to make clear that I am not interested in opening a business and have, so far, not. I have too many obligations to pursue creating and selling as a hobby. Doing an ‘All’ Search in-world will only pull up my profile, for example. Further, I made this position clear in the following places: my first blog post and also the 10th paragraph of my last comment (#46) on this blog).

    But, thank you, Charlotte:) …Thank you, everyone, for your time:). And to answer another question that the above will raise in some minds, I wrote that careful response to Charlotte because, well, I understand human nature and I know there will bound to be someone in need for me to answer. So, I have tried my best.

    Have a good day:)

    Comment by Tarasia Ashbourne | March 3, 2008

  53. well, everyone keep saying rg skins are from naugthy…but i never saw a zombie beeing sold in naughty…i think that you guys on the blog are doing this because u have some personel issue with rg…sorry to say that, but it’s what’s looking like, someone who has an misunderstanding with rg and now wan’t to destroy her store…and who cares about the body? i buy skins for the make up, not for the belly details…sorry to say that, but your image that are getting ruined girls, i know lots of people complaining about this sl wave of everyone accusing everybody of thievery…nobody is in the mood for this anymore

    Comment by Shadow Pidgeon | March 4, 2008

  54. Shadow, the latest update to this blog is for the benefit of misinformed people such as yourself. I don’t know RG from Adam, so it’s not personal.

    And who cares about the body? First of all, let me say that whether you care about the body or not has absolutely NO bearing on the subject of theft, but since you brought it up, there are lots and lots of people out there who happen to care. Some people sell items such as cropped shirts and jackets or bikinis, so to them having a skin with a decent torso, etc, is important because no one with a modicum of common sense would want to advertise their stuff with an av dressed in a subpar skin.

    Comment by melaniekiddofsl | March 4, 2008

  55. […] back to related article , related comment […]

    Pingback by Comparative “Designer G” and Alina” I « CONCLUSIONS by Tarasia | March 7, 2008

  56. […] back to related article , related comment […]

    Pingback by Comparative “Designer RG” and Alina” II « CONCLUSIONS by Tarasia | March 7, 2008

  57. UGH, Melanie, I didn’t mean to tick you off by saying anything about the skins NOT being present – What I was more trying to get across was… good on ya for spotting ripped skins, and for speaking up – because maybe it helped get them taken down.

    I was not trying to insinuate you were lying about the situation at all, and if it came out like that I am sorry. I didn’t mean to offend. And with that, consider it dropped on my part. I just wanted to get the apology out to you, and make sure you knew that I never meant to insinuate you were lying! Many, many apologies if that’s what it sounded like!

    Comment by Shannon Carroll | March 9, 2008

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